Suggestion on sea water

[reddaddy]

I've been looking at devil fruit powers seeking approval and it seems the staff that approve the fruits over estimate the weakness of sea water and the draining effects it has on df users and their powers. There are many cannon examples in one piece that suggest while it is a weakness it's only a problem from the knees up when someone is standing in a pool of water and only totally incapacitating when the water level gets to waist level.

So I see multiple exames of people not being able to use their powers at all on see water. Here are just some cannon examples out of many to show that's not true.

1. Aokiji freezing water when putting his hand in it to allow for the safe package of ship wrecked tourists outside eater 7.

2. Akainu throwing magma fists in sea water, bringing it to a boil while fighting the white beard pirates.

3. Brook running on water.

4. Luffy using his fuusen to prevent being submerged in water for a brief time.

5. Fishman island arc luffy fights under water and his extremities constantly are used in sea water. While weakened, he never loses his strength totally.

6. Robin using her giant hands to stop the sunny from crashing into the sea floor when going to fishman island

7. Luffy kicking large chunks of frozen sea water through the 3 admirals in the summit war when trying to reach ace. The admirals weren't even fazed by this.

8. While the strawhat crew was on its way to the shabandy archipelagos they encountered serpent currents. They exploded these currents constantly to defend the ship and were constantly drenched in sea water, yet not a single fruit user on the ship showed even a moment of weakness

9. Water 7 arc, luffy rode in front of rocket man and was constantly drenched by the wake the sea train created, yet he showed no weakness and even was able to disperse a massive aqua Laguna wave with zoro's help.

10. Luffy propelling the tiny jet dial vessel "the crow" using his bazooka technique to avoid traps in upper yard during the skypeia arc.

And there's probably more out there I can't think of right now, but the examples are truly numerous. I find there are times when looking at posts of df when fruit approvers say " don't forget this totally won't work on sea water" and make the fruit creator edit his fruit adding that in. It's really not necessary. People generally know that the most powerful disruptor of df powers is kairoseke. There are multiple examples in cannon of even brief contact with kairoseke weakening or completely incapacitating a df user almost immediately. It feels like the df approvers on this forum treat sea water and kairoseke the same when I. Fact they are and aren't. For some reason it seems oda has given leeway for df users to struggle better against sea water than kairoseke even though they are fundamentally the same material. Because of this I think the forum should behave the same way in such matters.

[Deleted]

Do you have any examples of the staff acting this way? I know the rule has pretty much always been that submerging in standing, liquid water is a threat and I haven't seen anyone act in a way that contradicts that, at least not lately. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but maybe it's just a misunderstanding? Plenty of Paramecia (including my own) have additional weaknesses to water as a balancing measure, and sometimes that just makes sense for the fruit and what we know of canon. (I don't think we've ever seen, say, Robin make an arm appear under water.)

I disagree with the notion that Seastone is the "primary" weakness of DF users and water is secondary, though. Seastone is described as giving off a wavelength the same as the sea, but while DF users exposed to Seastone are sometimes able to move under their own power (like Robin at Enies Lobby), DF users submerged in water are helpless. It's definitely just as, if not more, dangerous.

[White Mimic]

I'm pretty sure she did that, actually. It was on their descent to Fishman Island I believe though I may be remembering that wrong. Similarly, we've seen Luffy able to stretch his neck while submerged but not of his own accord. So, I think the rule is more the sea water prevents you from swimming or accessing your own powers, but the powers can still be used safely on or in water, on a case by case basis of course.

[Deleted]

Maybe, I guess? I know they were literally underwater during that arc, but for the most part weren't submerged in a sense that would activate the weakness. My point was that sometimes it's not appropriate for a power to work on/underwater but that seems to get handled on a case by case basis, as a weakness of some specific fruits.

With the Luffy example, his power isn't stretching his body parts, it's being made of rubber. So you could definitely argue that submersion wouldn't necessarily totally disable the user's powers, but in some cases that may be appropriate for balance.

[reddaddy]

I understand a need for balance, but that expectation should come from good rp and story telling and not necessarily inhibiting powers. Also yes people can walk with kairoseke cuffs, but there are also times when it seems to almost render people unconscious. For example when luffy was grabbing crocodile's cage and the bars of the coliseum when he saw law getting shot by donflamingo. But examples I've seen on this forum are

1 my own characters Hazu Hazu no Mi, the bounce fruit. Can't bounce off sea water at all.

2. There was someone who came up with a solid solid fruit concept where they could solidify objects like air or water. They were not permitted to solidify sea water, even if they weren't touching it or just barely touching it

3. One person made a character based on this forums water restrictions. Zeke, the crazy merchant character has a weapon that is like a sea water balloon in case he runs into fruit users. Cannon one piece episodes show that's completely ineffective, but if you read recent petitions for df powers it'd be easy to come to the same conclusion he did.

[Jade]

Allow me to address each example you have provided individually.

1. Kuzan's power is the very essence of ice. As I believe even you stated, water's ability to rob Devil Fruit users of their ability to use their powers only really kicks in once they're halfway submerged - simply sticking his hand in the water wouldn't be nearly enough to incapacitate him. Also, his power over ice makes sense in "altering" water, as he is merely freezing it.
2. Akainu boiling the water was not done while he was sitting in it - he was literally throwing the magma his body created into the water. Magma's (or lava, really) immense heat would, of course, bring the water's temperature up.
3. LBrook's running on water is technically a side effect of being a skeleton, and not a Devil Fruit ability. Either way, he is not submerged, so this point is also invalid.
4. Luffy's "Fuusen" being used to prevent being submerged falls under the same category - yes, he is using his powers to escape being submerged, but therein lies the downfall of this argument. He is never at any point submerged, so his being a "hammer" isn't a factor.
5. Now, I think I can offer an explanation here: while Luffy is, in fact, adding to his body's total surface area, the "Devil Fruit physics" doesn't read it that way. Instead of looking at his stretched-out arm as having far more surface area than the rest of his body, it is still read as simply his arm, thereby not being nearly enough of his body to be "fully submerged" and rendering him powerless.
6. This is a tricky one as well, but let's look at it this way - Robin created those limbs on the surface of the Sunny, and it certainly seemed like she could not maintain them underwater for very long anyway. In any case, I believe this would be classified under the same argument as Luffy's stretched arm technically still reading as having the same "surface area" as it would have if it were not stretched out.
7. As we've seen from Kuzan, ice does not have the same effect on Devil Fruit users as water does, despite technically being the same thing.
8. I... Actually don't recall this. Besides, their ship was coated, which was meant to keep the water out anyway. If that coating had been destroyed, they would have died from the immense pressure.
9. This is only evidence that merely being drenched does not have the same effect as being submerged. Hooray for Devil Fruit users being able to take showers! (They'd be super stinky and gross otherwise...)
10. At no point was Luffy submerged during these events, so I'm going to have to say this is an invalid point as well.

While I appreciate your coming forward and pointing out the problems you have with how we do things here (this isn't sarcasm, I promise), I don't believe any of your examples truly prove what you're hoping they would. Furthermore, in a lot of cases, Devil Fruit abilities being able to "affect" water would be massively overpowered, which is a reason we don't allow them. And, actually, none of your examples truly show any canon character actively affecting water anyway - even Kuzan is merely drastically lowering the temperature, not truly actively affecting the water (although that is how it appears).

[EriChar]

First up, the rule works off any water, not just sea water. It's a common misconception that someone could fall in fresh water and be fine. Secondly, a person needs to be submerged in non flowing water for weaknesses to present. That means rain and water spray have no effect.

If a user has more than 30% of their body submerged, their powers won't activate, meaning Luffy's passive power that requires no activation isn't affected, however they only lose a small amount of physical strength. If the user has more than 50% of their body submerged, they lose control of it and become paralysed.

Let's go through the examples, reviewing this information;

1) Aokiji froze the water thanks to the incredible levels of cold his powers can create, with only his palm submerged at most. Not enough to affect the power.

2) Akainu actually threw magma fists at the frozen sea Aokiji created earlier, and as for the effect, it would be natural heat of the above flame hot magma he threw. Akainu was never in contact with the water, and there's no reason something hot would suddenly be not hot on contact with water. Thermodynamics, dude.

3) Brook's example is because his body is so light, being just bones, he can run fast enough that he barely breaks the water's surface tension with his steps. I believe there's an insect called the Pondskater that can do the exact same thing in the real world.

4) That was an anime only incident, so likely a goof. However, there have been instances in cover pages where Luffy has been shown floating with rubber rings and swim aids, and there's no evidence to suggest that a fruit user is dragged into the water by an unknown force, so he might be able to briefly float if enough of his body is unsubmerged.

5) Again, Luffy can submerge parts of his body without the weakness affecting him, as long as the whole thing isn't submerged. In this example, he was pushing his arms and/or legs outside his air bubble, and was never more than 50% submerged.

6) Robin's might be the same as Luffy. She made giant hands, but again, technically, only her hands are submerged, not half her body so... It's borderline really, probably Oda taking some creative license.

7) Ice is fine, only water affects users. Otherwise Aokiji would collapse whenever he used his powers. Monet too.

8) Flowing water, not submersion, so doesn't affect the user.

9) See above answer.

10) Not enough of his body submerged to affect him.

As for our staff cracking down on things, it's not necessarily for the sake of the water weakness rule. Many times, things are cracked down on because it would be too overpowered in an RP setting for certain powers to affect water? I mean, it would basically mean there are fruits out there immune to the users big bane. Staff have not only series canon to worry about, but also keeping this playing field level.

[reddaddy]

I'm not talking about effecting water with powers im talking about just what you brought up, which is how surface area of water on the users body has an effect on someone with df powers depending on the extent they are submerged.

So Brook isn't running on air, hes running on sea water, but only his feet touch the water so he's fine as long as he doesn't get tired. That's why I don't understand why my character can't use a controlled bounce on water, kind of like skipping rocks

The kota kota no Mi is archived. The person making the this solid solid fruit could not solidify sea water no matter what. That's not right when you think about it. Density is determined by temperature after and molecules of objects. When kuzan freezes water he condenses it which is why it becomes solid. When akainu boils water he heats it, creating distance between atoms and turning it into vapor. So the kota kota no Mi fruit should have been a fine concept.

If there is little contact with surface area people should be able to use there powers 100 percent and there shouldn't be an exception for sea water unless they are submerged. Balance comes from rp. If my character were fighting a rank e character who pushed him into the ocean by surprise I could reasonably say my character defended himself by bouncing off the water. If some rank d (my character is rank e) smacked him with with a mallet and slammed him into the water, well, my characters screwed and I hope someone would jump into the water to save him.

[Jade]

Let's break it down again.

First up, Brook isn't running on air, you're right. But not a single part of his body is every submerged - his feet never break the water's surface tension, which is what allows him to run on the water's surface.

Kuzan is not condensing the water into ice, he is producing enough "chill" to freeze it through the use of his Logia ability. Furthermore, Akainu isn't affecting the water directly with his powers at all - he is producing magma/lava which was then dropped into the water, where the sheer heat set the water boiling.

There is not a single example of a Devil Fruit user using their power to directly affect sea water, and even if there were, I doubt we would allow it here, because it is absolutely a broken ability. Water is the bane of Devil Fruit abilities, after all.

[Vio]

*emerges from the depths*

I actually agree that your Hazu Hazu no Mi's inability to affect surface water with a bouncing mechanic might be something worth showing leniency on. The power itself isn't all that powerful, though as a general rule we've tried to dissuade Devil Fruits from having substantial effects on water bodies. In your case, it does make sense, though?

As for the Kota Kota no Mi, the solidification of water bodies actually is a case of being rather overpowered. If one could solidify water, then they could also effectively solidify an entire person (which would be almost immediately fatal). This is an example of us making things balanced - some powers have greater risk than others.

In the end, much of it is due to balance; something which the canon doesn't have to worry about, but we do as a public forum.

[reddaddy]

Well I understand that point, but maybe solidying people could be balanced if it was interpreted to have an effect like kalifa. She smoothed people out, so the kota kota no Mi wouldn't kill but turn someone into a...Lego man! Omg that would be hilarious!

[Deleted]

For the bouncing off of water, I know powers that can be used to avoid falling into water with zero preparation are usually denied or given restrictions because, well, it's kind of cheesy to say "My weakness is drowning but my power keeps me from drowning."

Nov 3, 2015 15:27:39 GMT -5 reddaddy said:

Well I understand that point, but maybe solidying people could be balanced if it was interpreted to have an effect like kalifa. She smoothed people out, so the kota kota no Mi wouldn't kill but turn someone into a...Lego man! Omg that would be hilarious!

That's a cool idea, but isn't that more something that should be up to whoever registered the Kota Kota no Mi? It's not really the staff's responsibility to create the fruits they're in charge of approving, so I don't think this constitutes a mistake on their part, especially if the Kota Kota no Mi's creator wasn't/isn't interested in an idea like that.

The fact that Zeke or his player thinks that throwing water balloons will disable DF users doesn't seem relevant unless you or he think the rules are written in a way that doesn't make it clear that you need to be submerged, in which case it would probably be a good idea to clarify them, yeah.

Edit: I'm probably not expressing myself very well because I'm extremely tired, but my point is that while some of these things could maybe stand clarification, I don't feel the staff handled any of those specific situations improperly or inconsistently.

[reddaddy]

I know it seems cheesy on its face, I really do, but it all depends on the person who is rping the character with the pwer right? Besides, the fact the df users have an ability in oone piece that helps them avoid submersion in water that is cannon means it shouldn't be totally banned here. Graders, staff, and regular old members should all keep balance in mind. There will always be over powered players that will frequent forums such as this, but that shouldn't stop people with good and balanced rp skills from being able to make use of their abilities in a reasonable fashion.

I don't even have a plan in mind for bouncing off water in the future as it stands. And I've decided my character is the type where he'd lose almost all the duels in pvp he would ever fight in one way or another (I'm working on my first thread now and I've already lost my first duel against a player). If I did have something in mind for bouncing on water it would probably be to rescue someone else later on if the story demanded it.

Anyways its hard to make sense of the logic of one piece df powers sometimes, but where clear examples are provided that allow a defense against submersion it should be allowed. As long as a df user only touched the surface of water and doesn't get submerged up to his waste he should use his powers. For my character he can only bounce a max of 15 yards at this rank. So if he can't get to safety with that distance when making contact with ocean water he better hope there is a good swimmer near by.