Reflections on Grading: Standards of Perfection

[EriChar]

This is more a commentary on my part as a member, rather than a staff, so me raising these points isn't something that is an admin going "We need to change this", more an effort to express myself and see what other people think on the matter? Maybe if particular issues seem to be bugging many people, that's something to examine?

For some time, I have felt something of an inconsistency between the gradings I see on the site, particularly in regard to the five score. It would seem, for me, different graders are working off different numbers and while what one might call a four another might say is a five and honestly, what do we even think should be handed out as an example of the finest RP?

Personally, I think it should be exactly that. The finest RP. A lot of time, I see people get knocked down for issues like "You used this word too much", but is that OK? While big issues are worth knocking someone down a point, do you think that a reason like this is? Looking at the word repetition, what exactly quantifies 'too much' degradation on words? I try my utmost to never refer to any character by the same name per paragraph, and generally dislike doing it more than a few times in the space of a thousand words. Yet, apparently even this measure has been considered excessive?

While I am not a grader, what I would consider a five score in RP would be an example of a poster who one would deem to be a shining example of RP on the site? Their work doesn't have to be perfect in my mind, I'd say a lot of people on this site alone write better than published authors in places, yet they don't get paid for their efforts? Should we really be expecting Ulysses from people who are writing from a fan hobby perspective? I'd say not. I'd say if you wanna write at that level, the experience should be it's own reward? But maybe if you're writing and making others think he/she is a good writer, I wanna be able to do that, maybe that's a pretty damn fine example of RP?

Overall, I find that a lot of the time, the simple act of grading is a very murky process, and maybe it shouldn't be? Effectively someone is judging your work, and while it has been said that there are certain standards and practices upheld by the grader on these judgements, can anyone look at them? It's all well and good having someone go "You're good at this but I hated this." but I don't think that's telling even half the story? If we're expecting people to improve, and seem to have the idea that there are clearly defined levels at which people RP, maybe we should make them pretty obvious? That way, if someone's getting say a three and wants to move up to a four, they might have an idea of how they might do it? Personally, I don't think one person telling you what you suck at is terribly conducive to improvement? That is one person's opinion, and we all have unique writing styles for the most part. While the character of one's writing isn't something worth excusing obvious and lazy mistakes, should someone really be knocked down just because the flavour doesn't quite agree with them?

Personally, I really hate Tolkein's writing, so does that mean that he's a bad writer? There's plenty of evidence to the contrary, I'd say. However, whenever I pick up one of these books that other people have called 'amazing' and 'the greatest fantasy ever', all I can see is a weirdo who needs to learn to tell me what he wants to say without the BS?

[Blaka]

I uh can only say that I absolutely agree. Though I'm out on ideas how you'd change the status quo. I mean, we already have this "How Grading works" thingie. Yet that didn't solve a lot. I agree that the issue is there, but I think its rather difficult to solve, since it really does come down to the grader and what the grader likes most of the time.

-Blab out

[EriChar]

Doesn't that make grading a bit of a lottery though? I mean, if we're trying to reward people on the quality of their work, isn't it a bit dumb that someone with what may be a lower standard of work will get a higher score than someone who wrote a little better, simply because the grader was nicer? From an objective perspective, I'd say it kinda devalues the whole point of getting graded for quality if too much personal feeling is put into it?

[Blaka]

Yeah of course it does, that's what I was trying to say. I just don't know how to fix that, just wanted to agree with you that we should maybe think of something

[Shinku]

There should be quality posts rather than just walls of text, but on the same time posting should stay enjoyable. Some people have very great writing abilities and it’s really great, but I’m not sure if it’s good to take that as a standard for the forum. If you can only get a five if you have the talent, no matter how much effort you put into a post, then that might put off the weaker writers.
I’m not saying one should lower the level… but for me this is a RP site, not a writers site. There should be more focus on the plot and character developments in grading than just on the artistic writing stuff. (I’m not saying to completely ignore it, but if you don’t get a five just because you misspell one word or because you used he/she too many times for the graders taste, then that’s taking it to the extreme)
For me a five is something to aim at, something to work for and something to put thinking into when writing a post or considering the plot’s development. But I admit that sometimes I just don’t care, because I’m having fun writing and just go with the flow the story takes me and if I don’t get a five then that’s fine with me. I’m here to have fun, not to publish a book.

Also.. you say that it’s luck what grader you get. That’s true… but it doesn’t mean the graders aren’t doing their work well. It just in the nature of books and stories, that some like some parts more than others would and that some are more focused on grammar than others while some focus on the same but have a more lenient or strict nature. That’s not because they don’t take grading serious, but because of the nature of grading. The graders aren’t professional English teachers or anything like that and even with the language teachers in school, there was always this discussion that it’s lucky who you got.
Literature and languages are things that CAN be judged objectively… but only to a point. Over that point it’s each graders judgement. Some are stricter than others, but I haven’t seen any misuses of the system to “punish” people they like less or to “help” people they like, so I think the graders are doing a their job as good as they can and I don’t see any need for changes, though it’s good to talk about what you feel is good and what not.

This turned longer than I wanted, so I’ll just sum up my important point:
Have fun!

[Roin]

Since I'm a grader and this is about grading, I figured I'd chip in my two cents. Personally, I'd vote for them being perfect... but I voted in yer poll for them to be near/realistically perfect.

The reason is that I put aside my own idea for one that's realistically feasible. The "standard" of the site shouldn't be based around the people, but on a goal. The reason, of course, is in reflection of schooling. You might lower the bar for some (similar to giving leanway to non-native English speakers), but the entire nation has a goal. Think of each member as a state, trying to match the nation's threshold/standard.

With that bit of stuff aside, I think it's dumb that people are worried about what grader they get. The reason is simply what Shinku mentioned. Grades shouldn't matter, just as much as EXP shouldn't be your number one priority. If you think getting a 1 or 2 ruins your thread, then why are you RPing aside from making the strongest character you can? Most of the "problems" with grading seem to be reflected around the idea that scores aren't proper... but to me, that sounds less of an issue over the standards but more of an issue with the graders giving out scores. If that's the case, I know that I've personally made sure to tell people to contact me if the grading isn't to their benefit. Not only that... but if you think you deserve a five, you should say something. The reality of it is, if the Grader can't soundly defend their reasoning then they shouldn't hand out the grading. It's exactly why I've set myself to a standard (there's that term again) of making sure to explain EXACTLY why I deduct.

TLDR: This is sorta bringing up issues with Graders rather than grading from the bits I've read. But I still voted "near/realistically perfect" because it's better to set a high goal for everyone than to grade them based along some site average. No one says you have to earn a high grade to RP here, so why not give incentives to people who make their writing pristine? Length doesn't matter as much as just solid writing if I have to give my two cents.

[Kurosaki]

Digging up this older thread because I missed it originally... I think that what everyone has said has a good point... But, ultimately, I'm leaning more toward Shin and Roin's comments. Grading is very arbitrary in a lot of ways but we do have a rubric that graders are expected to follow now that has gone a long way in fixing some of the wild fluctuations in grading we were having in the past. Now graders typically grade people within a .5 to 1 point difference, which isn't a huge difference exp wise. Granted, it would be nice if all the graders could agree on what constitutes a 5 score but I feel that it would be very difficult to get them all on the same page. I think the most important thing is that the graders, to Roin's point, have a valid reason why they did not award full points and can argue that. We've done regrades as well in order to keep graders honest in the past and that is always an option.

That being said, I need to make sure to take it upon myself to check up on some of the grades to make sure that graders are being fair across the board and maybe make suggestions to help hone their skills and get us closer to being consistent and I will try to work on that. Hopefully that will help our situation out as well.

[Lord Bromosalino]

As the person responsible for creating the grading rubric, I think I should interject here and help clarify (as well as add my own thoughts into this). It might just be a reiteration of what everyone is kind of already saying. I don't think that grading should fluctuate more than .5 in either way from grader to grader. We have a rubric in place that is pretty clear on what is expected for each of the possible scores. I think that Char-sama is right on the money though. I believe that a thread doesn't need to be some C.S. Lewis or Tolkien type of a deal to get a perfect five. He's absolutely right (he's Char-samama, he's always right). We're not professional writers, otherwise I'd want to get paid! No, we're all doing this as a hobby because we all love One Piece (or at least the world of One Piece) and we're trying to have some fun with this thing. I think we have to ask ourselves a fundamental question here; as graders, what are we grading exactly?

This is a two part answer; execution and creativity. For any high score (four and above), as graders we have to hold a few things up to a high standard. Grammatical and spelling errors should definitely be a minimum. We all make mistakes, even the greatest of writers. This is why they have publishers! But as long as it doesn't take away from the quality of the thread so much so that it becomes difficult, then why are we dinging people for not having an absolutely perfect thread? If they're running it through a spell check and its minor errors, they get a good grade in my book.

The second is where the bulk of the grade should really come from; creativity. What are we doing here on Bon Voyage, eh? We're creating characters that we can tell stories with. After all, this entire notion of rping is nothing more than a form of storytelling isn't it? Tolkien is one of my favorite writers, why? Because he wrote a great story (and then of course his execution was well done). But most importantly, his story was creative, interesting, kept myself and hundreds of thousands entertained and enthralled. Wouldn't it make sense that the bulk of our grading is on the story itself and not on nitpicking minor mistakes in grammar or spelling or syntax? I think we've deviated from that as graders, and I think it's time we remembered what we're here to grade. A thread doesn't have to be the next box office hit or the next best seller. But I think anyone can tell a lazy thread that was thrown together for the sake of *insert here: getting experience, getting the first 'crew meeting' thread done, etc* and one that had thought and passion put into it. I think that's what determines a four and a five grade and what we as graders are here to look for.

Phew. That turned into a bit of a ramble, but I hope I helped clarify what we can do (or at least have in mind) when a thread is being graded.

[Deleted]

While I h8 Romo with a passion, I actually have got to agree with him here. For those of you unfortunate enough to have been graded by MOI, you'll know that I tend to separate the technical side of your writing from the skillful. Now what I mean from those two despite them sounding eerily similar is very much like what Romo describes, execution and creativity. In a work of writing, I am expecting someone to know proper grammar, punctuation, spelling and whatnot but don't really tend to judge too harshly on that (at least not anymore). After all, writing is an art form! In my opinion, while your technique might be nothing extraordinary, if your post vividly paints up a setting or constructs a well developed and well paced story then who am I to deny you a grade consistent with its quality? That isn't to say I'll give you a five just because you talked about a room's inner workings to please me. I'm more chattering on about the process of grading that at least I (and Romo apparently) have.

[Kurosaki]

I'll shoot off a pm to remind them that a 5 doesn't have to be a perfect thread. Hopefully that will help! =)