Grand Update "Whatever.0" Edition... for Devil Fruits [Idea]

[Roin]

Alright, I'm going to open the can of worms.

I sincerely believe we need to have every old Devil Fruit brought up to date and REAPPROVED.

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That being said, I have a very simple idea for it and it's clear that this is a topic that needs to be addressed. Without going into the example, there has been a situation where an out-of-date Devil Fruit didn't fit for fairness sake... and seeing that happen has made it clear that this is a problem that is VERY real, rather than just some after-thought.

As a person who's RPed for 15 years (almost 16 now), I've seen my fair share of "recalls" and do-overs on situations. I've seen an RP rebooted with characters using fresher, newer looks but everything else was the same... I've even seen entire reboots with everything exactly the same. And then there's the times I've seen RPs become completely different... but the people more or less stayed because it was a setting they enjoyed. Where I'm going with this is simple...

I don't think your fruit's continuity in prior threads matters.

Shoot me, hate me, whatever... but it's a fact I honestly believe. We're here for FAIR RPing. People join this site to RP with OTHER PEOPLE. Lynx explained this to me when she initially joined, which is why I set about making us one of the largest, most diverse crews in a long time. Ever since it formed, I've been seeing the site in a much bigger light... specifically interaction with other groups. It's another topic entirely, so I'll bring it back to the focus of why I introduced this.

Devil Fruits are one aspect that likely stop interaction.

Why? Because we have fruits that were made so long ago that they don't scale in power (so they're generally either REALLY powerful, balanced, or REALLY weak). On top of this drastic range of scaling (while the new Devil Fruits are more or less in a much smaller range of power/use), we have the fact that fruits DIDN'T have tons of detail. We have fruits that seemingly combine older concepts as well as just being kinda overboard. The first example that springs to mind is that some Logia ARE OP. Aubs has an Acid Fruit (which is similar to Magellan's "melting" poison already) that seems to burn through nearly everything, while z0 has an ash fruit that IMMEDIATELY starts out at nearly volcanic temperatures. So on top of heat, his fruit also has "weight" and the ability to bury/trap people in heated ash.

Both of these are Logia examples, I know, but they're valid to the point that old Devil Fruits NEED to be updated. I'm not saying they can't be things still, since we try to grandfather older fruits, but... seriously guys, just because your fruit might be capable of melting something and it gets scaled back... why should that matter? Our characters have histories that seemingly don't matter as to where we start out... yet you're worried about reading over a previous thread and seeing your fruit doesn't match? Previous threads are in the past. You don't need the old fruit to remember it nor do you need the same abilities. People will shy away if they see people running around with OP, older fruits that just aren't taken into account for an update.

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My TLDR
I want every Devil Fruit that's still being used to be updated to the new format, potentially even reviewed for fairness. It's not only fair to new members, but it's showing that we don't show favoritism just because you've been here for years. No matter how long members are on Bon Voyage, they should be equal to the new guys walking in the door when it comes to the rules.


Post here if you think differently, if you agree, whatever... because this is a topic that seriously IS important, even if people don't agree so.

[EriChar]

What would be your cut off for fruits considered 'old'?

[Roin]

To put it into formatting terms, it'd be the fruits that are missing two fields, specifically since one could fit all fruit types while the other is pretty essential for the fruit's overall "clearness".

Ability Potential and Zoan Form Descriptions


The reason for this, obviously, is that Ability Potential ensures that fruits actually scale if they're OP. An example would be, for example, the Goe Goe no Mi. At lower ranks, it's got a pretty low-potential for destructive power... but as you grow in rank, the ability to harness this power actually grows to match your strength. If the modern format uses this to ensure Fruits aren't too OP RIGHT out the bat, then it only makes sense to apply it to the old ones.

As for Zoan Form Descriptions, I know it's a Zoan exclusive... but we have it seperately to keep it clean. Some of the old Zoans I've looked at that lack this... are a bit weird having descriptions mixed in with the ability of the fruit.

While the second is more format, the prior is pretty big to ensure that fruits aren't just "eat and use" at max power. As we've seen for the most part, this fits the fact that fruits scale based on the wielder's power, rather than the fruit itself. Key examples? Blackbeard instantly harnesses the raw, destructive power of Whitebeard's Fruit and Sabo almost-instantly able to match Ace's ability of control and heat with the Mera Mera.

[EriChar]

I think that's a pretty fair point of assessment really, since it should give us a chance to 'nip in the bud' any potentially pesky routes people have been eyeing up for development. Might even be help the older members themselves to think about progressive routes they can take with their powers.
Zoan form descriptions are especially a must since it's kind of RP essential; enemies and allies alike might need a good write up to know what they're dealing with there.

Now, from a strictly staff perspective, my only concern would be the logistics of such a thing? We'll have dozens of fruits that will need approving, on top of the workload we have already, so any suggestions for how we can achieve this without working people like well, me, to death?

[Roin]

The first idea that literally sprang to my head when I read that post... was the idea of possibly doing "waves" of the Devil Fruits. We could always do this in various methods, such as gathering a list and doing them on a schedule... or we could just use dates. How we do these waves is up to best decision, but it'd probably be the most effective way to get this done without burdening staff too much more.

And I know I've said it before, but this is truly something I believe NEEDS to happen. It helps the site look a lot better when we keep things up to date, even if they're grandfather'd in.

IF YOU VOTE ON THE POLL, I ASK THAT YOU REPLY. EVEN IF YOU CHOOSE THE YES OR NO OPTIONS, YOUR OPINION DOESN'T HURT! BUT IF YOU CHOSE THE MIDDLE TWO, I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HEAR YOUR INPUT!

We all would!

[Shinku]

So far I never had any problems with fruit users, though I guess some other people had problems, or there wouldn’t be a discussion about it.

If I should end up with someone misusing their fruit, I shall either point it out…, find a way to deal with it… or just finish the thread and never rp with that person again.
Honestly, Fruits users do have to take some responsibility for their DF as well as for their character development. I’m not going to tell them what to do or not to do, because everything has consequences of some sort, so misusing your fruit just because there are loopholes in the profile will just backfire on you.
Getting an old fruit approved again could help the character’s progress and all, so I think people should think for their own good and decide if their fruit needs an update or not.

As I have no fruit of my own (not any that would give me powers in any case) and since there are people more bothered by it than me, I’ll just leave the discussion to them. I don’t think I will feel affected much in any case, no matter what the result.
Both sides do have a point, I admit that. But I don’t really have anything to add to that aside of what I already said.

[Suriko]

So I suppose since I changed my vote to the second option, I should explain my stance.

I do think this is something that needs to be done. Not only because of the loopholes, but just the age of some fruit's has them approved based on entirely different criteria as opposed to now. While it does cause a bit of story issue for existing characters, it does send an odd message to new members.

That part aside I do also believe that is not merely misuse of fruit powers, but in some cases the very concept of some fruits are a bit questionable. Not going into detail. I could think of a few that would no longer be passable if they were submitted.

On the other hand, it does put a bit of extra work on the staff as char put it. At a point where a lot of staff are having concerns outside of the site that need to be taken care of. Rl issues aside, everyone should enjoy coming to the site, including staff. With that in mind. I suggest we do something along the lines of looking over the fruits first. In this regard, staff can quickly go through the fruits without issues, as well as hold off on problem ones. By doing so we can more leave the updating to those whose fruit is still passable, while focusing on the questionable ones.

[Blushing z0ro]

My only real problem is like the others I feel it would be way more work than it's actually worth it. At least for the moment. Also I feel it's not something that is much of an actual issue, I think that simply dealing with issues with fruits if/when they arise would be more than enough. especially as they quite rarely happen from what I can tell.

My other issue was the argument that seeing how Sabo ate the Mera Mera no mi that the fruit's power level (heat) being apparently equal to Ace's before his death meant that the power of a fruit was directly link to the strength of the user. But I;d say this example could be used to argue the opposite and that the properties of the fruit power doesn't change but simply control over it does. I don't think the temperature of the Mera Mera or the Magu Magu no Mi's flamme/magma got higher as the users got stronger or that the electricity of Enel's Goro Goro no Mi got a higher voltage or something. You get more control over your power and can do more things with it but the properties of whatever you're fruit is producing don't change I think.

[Blaka]

Don't really want part in any bigger discussion but I was told to put something here anyway^^ s-so here goes...

I probably just never looked at enough fruits to notice a huge problem but well I never noticed a huge problem. Sure there are one or two examples that are a little op but from what I've heard those were all individually asked to do something about that and/or the characters that use them went kinda inactive.
Instead of a huuuge reapplying of every single fruit I'd opt to only look into those that are complained about. Or make it a perk for those who actually want to improve their description (ahem that would be me).

However, I highly disagree on the point that older threads don't matter. Mainly because I just haaate retcon. This example might sound weird (supertired but this is the only time I can actually do this right now) but let me explain: What a character can and cannot do is part of how he acts around enemies. For example if I just gained a neat ability to deflect bullets (just a made up example) I get super confident around gunmen. If that is suddenly not the case anymore, that kinda leads to character regression. Or if a character was cold resistant and had a super important fight in the middle of a blizzard - then suddenly loses that ability. That would just strike me as odd.

Furthermore, Logia are waaay stronger than other fruits, yes. That's why you need to wait for them. That's how it is in canon. I'd rather stay true to canon than nerf abilities.

B-but yeah I'm all for adding the opportunity to add better Zoan Form Descriptions for those who want it.

[Vio]

I have to say, I do like this idea. A know for certain that a lot of older Fruits need reworking for one reason or another. Otherwise, I can't say much else.

[Bladeninja]

When my character (a non-DF user) was about to duel another person's character (a DF user), I saw that the other person's character's DF was clearly OP. I was upset at the staff for approving it, but didn't really hold it against the person and embraced the challenging fight that followed (which I lost). Now I actually don't care about grading, but when the fight was graded I saw the grader penalizing the person for using their OP abilities. My character may have lost the fight, but I felt like the other person was wronged; it's not like the DF was the only reason the other person won.

The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think we should hassle the players for something that was already approved. I'm willing to accept that some people might have had a worse experience than me, but is pvp even a big deal here? If not, then the amount of work you're proposing feels like it would be more troublesome than helpful. Furthermore, who says the current system and fruits are perfectly fair? I definitely see that you have good intentions, and you probably have way more knowledge than me since I'm not very active, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

[Roin]

We're not doing this to "hassle" anyone. As someone who's filled out forms and had 8 characters approved, made two Devil Fruit, and made a few NPCs, I can say that filling out a form and rewriting ain't hard.

I will say, however, that the comment about "you noticed it, but didn't bother" is what shouldn't be happening. If someone has a fruit that comes off as OP, it should be brought up. That fruit was made OP... so naturally, it's far more likely to be abused. That's not a site statistic, it's simply what I've learned over the years with other sites. If you make something have holes, it has the potential to be abused. On top of this... the Graders shouldn't have to be telling people to stop being OP with fruits. That's why we have a Devil Fruit approval team. Old or otherwise, the Devil Fruits are moderated just like characters and just like the various other boards and threads we use.

We wouldn't allow you to get an OP item. I actually know of a case where someone had to get rid of an item because his character was judged too OP. And rather than someone lose their fruit outright or get into some big and heated discussion over whatever... I saw this as a way to both ensure new members don't meet this problem and the old members have fair ground to WORK with the staff. If it was just a "every old fruit needs to be redone from the ground up", then I agree that it would be excessive.

This isn't something that the staff could focus on right away anyhow. This is also something that just couldn't even possibly happen overnight. That being said... I'm glad to have got more responses in this discussion, as it has no doubt helped the staff who might be interested in the idea to relay how it appears. If Char's comments earlier weren't a clue and what I said didn't make it clear... this isn't happening right now, probably won't for a while as well.

And uh... it's not so much a point to argue on, since it could derail the thread... but the potential reason we don't have very much PvP is due to the fact that people see some of the OP fruits as threats? Not too many of the ones I personally think are OP are out right now... but I know their inclusion would certainly push me away from RPing with the owners of them. These threads shouldn't be going into grading with the Graders having to repeat my worries, as the one who graded you deducted for the OP attacks. If it's just me, I would personally prefer the fruits to at least be "fair" within reason, so I don't have to think "Well, now I need to decide how I'll lose" or "I hope our thread isn't hurt because someone went over the top with their Devil Fruit". Those aren't the concerns I want to have... but that's just me. I'd rather be secure in the knowledge that everyone with a DF in my thread both can be trusted and CAN'T be OP without just like... being a complete wreck and breaking rules or something.

[Bladeninja]

I acknowledge that you make some good points, so maybe the can of worms was worth opening. I still consider it a hassle since it's a large amount of people/fruits, but I'm willing to believe there's a possibility of it being worth it. I've eased my stance a bit, so hopefully more will join the discussion.

[Vio]

If anything, just updating the older Devil Fruits to the new template would suffice. Besides this, it's a definite thing that not all Fruits need reworking. Some do, some a tiny bit, some are fine as is.

I think the first stage if/(hopefully)when this idea goes through will be deciding what needs reworking and what could do with just moving to a new template. I know for a fact I'd like to update my older Fruits to the new template, especially with some of the recent features of the Tane Tane no Mi I've discovered and could do with better highlighting. But, yeah. Some will have to rework their fruits and get them completely reapproved, though that number is veeeeeeeeeery small. Others I think it's just a matter of cleaning up, and that's not a rushed process.

Hopefully we can work it so that it doesn't interfere with anything, such as existing threads. I see it as this: Staff will go over the older Fruits and reassess them, deciding if any need some changes, without forcing people to hold up on threads while they await a verdict.

That's the best way to do it, really. For most, it's just a case of spring cleaning!

[Aubs]

Sorry for my tardiness on this subject. The decision has probably already been made but this is an interesting topic so I couldn’t resist. This is not supposed to be offensive, if anyone finds a passage that way please PM me so that I can rewrite. I voted no, but.

I disagree with the general premise that people should be forced to update their fruits. Issues we have seen in the past with fruits on this site do not back up your idea that it is the approval process which has flaws to it, but the marketplace instead (which I will address in a minute). However, there is a disparity between older fruits and newer ones, but that is self-induced. Those people who were approved before did their diligence, just because things have changed doesn’t mean they have to. These same fruits and characters have been around for a long time, they have stories, and they have connections. Messing with that is really lame.

Generally speaking, just because you, another staff member, or the staff as a whole do not like the description of a fruit does not mean that others do not find it enjoyable to play with, again there is no empirical data showing otherwise. That fruit was already approved, and pending any actual misuse what has that user done to harm the site?

We can make the claim that staff are concerned with fruits being used incorrectly, because we have evidence on the staff board. An occurrence comes to mind, where the staff as a whole talked about a fruit that was being ill-used. And what we found was not that it had been approved as overpowered but that it was 1. Upgraded improperly and 2. Used not in correlation with its prescribed powers. And speaking honestly, it was a pretty good discussion of powers and rules that resulted in a satisfactory outcome. Now if the concern is ACTUAL issues but not potential issues then we have a blueprint in that past occurrence.

If instead this is about something that may or may not being happening, or something that may or may not happen, then I say bullshit. This plan is posited on the idea that people care about the fruits of other members enough to not play with them (or at least to inform their decision-making process), which in fairness you cannot in good faith claim for the majority of members on the site. Just because the standard changed over time for what a fruit–approver wants does not mean that anyone did anything wrong, nor should they have to update their stuff to appease a new approval.

For instance, using your same example. I’m genuinely sorry you don’t like my logia fruit, but when it was approved it had to go through Char, Die, Thor and Kuro, with a good deal of traffic on chat and PM in order to have it approvable. Does it meet your personal standard, maybe not, but did the staff sign off on it…yes. I doubt I’m the only case of someone who had to work rather hard towards a single fruit approval. It is like saying that you, nondescript lover of BV, you have to try harder now your stuff doesn’t make the cut. The whole think reeks of being less-inclusive. It seems out of place to make people do it again because someone may or may not want to RP with them because of a single aspect of their character.

Because, assuredly, someone will RP with them: fruit or no fruit.

All that being said, here is an idea that might be of some use. If our concern is fruits needing to meet new standards, then why not incorporate that policy into the Orphanage? When a fruit is dropped or a player misses the check-in the fruit goes to the Orphanage, where to be approved under a new user it would require a new format and rethink meeting your standards. Combine that with the staff’s previous stance on addressing serious concerns of OP stuff through discussions on the staff board, by sifting through evidence, and I think you will see that fruits that are actually “bad” can be addressed without scorched earth.

I’m like you Roin, I’ve been doing this RP thing for a long time. And like you I have been on many sites, and some of them tried this same thing every so often. Start over and make people change clans, techs, abilities, fruits, powers whatever you want to call it, because the site was changing. In all of those cases, it only hurt the site. I do think it is worth looking at fruits to update them. But outside of voluntary updates or updates done when fruits are no longer claimed for use, I don’t see this as a worthwhile endeavor.

SPOILER: Click to show

Sum: I do not agree that we as a site need to remake all “old” fruits. This is not a worthwhile endeavor. If the concern is making fruits better then there are means other than this scorched earth approach. We can use the Orphanage system to recreate older fruits. Also we have a record of adjusting fruits that were decided to OP. We could use that approach for ACTUAL infractions, not potential ones. While I disagree greatly with the idea of remaking all fruits….because…I do think that adjusting our many other systems to account for older fruits running their lifespan would be beneficial ( I do acknowledge that this will not account for fruits that never leave their original player or that are never claimed by users to be OP, I am ok with this).